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I never once said Ozzie shouldn’t be in the Hall, but he just barely deserves it. 

Edgar wasn’t a terrible defender before he got injured. He was actually above average at 3B according to the available data. He wasn’t moved to DH because he couldn’t field. After his injury, it just made more sense to have him at DH to preserve his health. Plus, the mariners had mike blowers to play 3B and tino Martinez at 1B in 1995. After how well Edgar hit that year at DH, it just made more sense to leave him there. 

Comment by DriveByTrucker17
8/25/2019 1:11PM PDT

I saw Edgar. He had no range. Also the fact remains for whatever reason he contributed NOTHING for 50% of the games he was in. 

Ozzie isn’t a fringe HOF he is the best defensive player to play the game and a true legend. How did Jeter hate turn to Ozzie hate. 

8/25/2019 2:24PM PDT
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There is plenty of evidence. It’s called Ba with Risp.

there are also stats for close and late batting average. 

Comment by Maverick31762
8/25/2019 2:21PM PDT

Good players are almost always are still good with RISP, late in games, etc. Bad players are almost always still bad. Nobody gets magically better with RISP. Not to mention there’s more that goes into it. Good hitters tend to see tougher matchups in big situations. Like I said in another post, it almost always evens out. People just remember when a player comes through in a big situation more than when he strikes out.

8/25/2019 2:34PM PDT
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I saw Edgar. He had no range. Also the fact remains for whatever reason he contributed NOTHING for 50% of the games he was in. 

Ozzie isn’t a fringe HOF he is the best defensive player to play the game and a true legend. How did Jeter hate turn to Ozzie hate. 

Comment by Maverick31762
8/25/2019 2:24PM PDT

I don’t care about your eye test or that you think he had no range. He wasn’t an amazing defender, but he didn’t hurt the mariners at 3B either. Ozzie is indeed fringe HOF. Having -69.4 career offensive WAR makes him a bottom of the barrel tier hall of famer. A guy with great defense is great, but offense is more important than defense, even at SS. 

8/25/2019 2:38PM PDT
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I don’t care about your eye test or that you think he had no range. He wasn’t an amazing defender, but he didn’t hurt the mariners at 3B either. Ozzie is indeed fringe HOF. Having -69.4 career offensive WAR makes him a bottom of the barrel tier hall of famer. A guy with great defense is great, but offense is more important than defense, even at SS. 

Comment by DriveByTrucker17
8/25/2019 2:38PM PDT

Okay, now you're pushing it man. Look at his overall WAR. Ozzie is not a fringe Hall of Famer, you're just trying to manipulate the overall numbers by pointing out the negative and not acknowledging the overwhelming positive. His overall contributions kept him on the field long enough to amass over 2400 hits. Also, if the bases he gained through steals were added into his slugging percentage, I bet you that career ops+ would look a lot better.

8/25/2019 2:50PM PDT

1. Jeter is for sure a below average SS. He played short because he couldnt play 3rd, imo.

2. Errors do not define defenders. Better defenders will make more errors than worse defenders since they get to more balls and thus have more opportunitie to make errors.

3. His career average is .310 while his playoff average is .308. This is interpreted to me that he is vitrually the same hitter in the regualr season as well as the postseason. Obviously when someone gets a hit in big situations, they are "clutch" but like peope hvae said, good hitters usually perform well and bad hitters usually perform bad. Name one person that is "clutch" that is also considered not a good baseball player?

4. The "highlight reel" plays he made werent highlight reels. Most of the jump throws come from lacking range to get to balls a couple steps in the hole. The play in the stands was overexaggerated and the playoff home plate play was just dumb. Runner was out regardless. 

Conclusion: Come to realize that Jeter was just a pretty good baseball player. Hall of Famer? Yes. Great Hitter? Yes. Great Defender? Not Really. Class ACt? Absolutely.

8/25/2019 3:14PM PDT

1. Jeter is for sure a below average SS. He played short because he couldnt play 3rd, imo.

2. Errors do not define defenders. Better defenders will make more errors than worse defenders since they get to more balls and thus have more opportunitie to make errors.

3. His career average is .310 while his playoff average is .308. This is interpreted to me that he is vitrually the same hitter in the regualr season as well as the postseason. Obviously when someone gets a hit in big situations, they are "clutch" but like peope hvae said, good hitters usually perform well and bad hitters usually perform bad. Name one person that is "clutch" that is also considered not a good baseball player?

4. The "highlight reel" plays he made werent highlight reels. Most of the jump throws come from lacking range to get to balls a couple steps in the hole. The play in the stands was overexaggerated and the playoff home plate play was just dumb. Runner was out regardless. 

Conclusion: Come to realize that Jeter was just a pretty good baseball player. Hall of Famer? Yes. Great Hitter? Yes. Great Defender? Not Really. Class ACt? Absolutely.

Comment by RedSoxWolverine1
8/25/2019 3:14PM PDT
  1. He could play 3B. He was a SS
  2. Point is made plays all the balls he got to.
  3. .310 va .308 is VERY impressive given that you were going against the best teams and best pitchers. No number 5 starter on a last place team
  4. i agree
  5. i agree with your last statement
8/25/2019 4:46PM PDT
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I don’t care about your eye test or that you think he had no range. He wasn’t an amazing defender, but he didn’t hurt the mariners at 3B either. Ozzie is indeed fringe HOF. Having -69.4 career offensive WAR makes him a bottom of the barrel tier hall of famer. A guy with great defense is great, but offense is more important than defense, even at SS. 

Comment by DriveByTrucker17
8/25/2019 2:38PM PDT

I saw the lack of range sorry I am use my eyeballs over sabermeteics.

Being that you dont care what I think. I will return that to you about Ozzie. I don’t know a soul who thought Ozzie wasn’t a HOF while he was playing or anyone who blinked twice when he got in. If he didn’t get in people would have lost their minds. If you need stats to figure out that ozzie is a legit no brained HOF I just laugh and question your judgement. Did you see edgarvir Ozzie ever play?

ozzie is NOT in for his offense, just like Edgar isn’t in for his defense. Just as a reminder Ozzie has the all time leader in dWAR. If dude robs a base hit that would have scored the winning run that is just as good as hitting that winning rbi.

8/25/2019 4:53PM PDT
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Good players are almost always are still good with RISP, late in games, etc. Bad players are almost always still bad. Nobody gets magically better with RISP. Not to mention there’s more that goes into it. Good hitters tend to see tougher matchups in big situations. Like I said in another post, it almost always evens out. People just remember when a player comes through in a big situation more than when he strikes out.

Comment by DriveByTrucker17
8/25/2019 2:34PM PDT

 

Great players are not great in the post season.

Post season numbers

Derek Jeter .308 yes there is such a thing as clutch

Bonds .245

Arod .259

wade Boggs .273

Mantle .257

Ty Cobb .262

Ted Williams .200

Willie Mays .247

manny Ramirez .285

joe Morgan .182

Sosa .245

mcGwire 217

Kenny Lofton 247

 

 

 

 

 

 

8/25/2019 5:08PM PDT

I want more Tiger greats. 

Hank Greenberg would be dope as hell. 

8/25/2019 5:15PM PDT
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Great players are not great in the post season.

Post season numbers

Derek Jeter .308 yes there is such a thing as clutch

Bonds .245

Arod .259

wade Boggs .273

Mantle .257

Ty Cobb .262

Ted Williams .200

Willie Mays .247

manny Ramirez .285

joe Morgan .182

Sosa .245

mcGwire 217

Kenny Lofton 247

 

 

 

 

 

 

Comment by Maverick31762
8/25/2019 5:08PM PDT

Just gonna use average huh? 

Jeter had an .838 OPS and 121 wRC+ in the postseason.

Bonds had .936 OPS and 141 wRC+

Arod had .832 OPS and 116 wRC+

Boggs had .720 OPS and 93 wRC+

Mantle had .908 OPS and 147 wRC+

Cobb had .668 OPS and 109 wRC+

Williams had .533 OPS and 48 wRC+ 

Mays had .660 OPS and 85 wRC+

Ramirez had .937 OPS and 140 wRC+

Morgan had .671 OPS and 92 wRC+

Sosa had .818 OPS and 110 wRC+

McGwire had .669 OPS and 87 wRC+

Lofton had .667 OPS and 75 wRC+

A lot of those guys were better than jeter in the postseason, and a lot weren’t. Jeter’s post season stats were really not that special at all.

8/25/2019 7:59PM PDT
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Okay, now you're pushing it man. Look at his overall WAR. Ozzie is not a fringe Hall of Famer, you're just trying to manipulate the overall numbers by pointing out the negative and not acknowledging the overwhelming positive. His overall contributions kept him on the field long enough to amass over 2400 hits. Also, if the bases he gained through steals were added into his slugging percentage, I bet you that career ops+ would look a lot better.

Comment by coastereight
8/25/2019 2:50PM PDT

Yes, his overall WAR is literally all defense and nothing else. A guy being on the field long enough to get 2400 hits doesn’t impress me at all. Play a long time and you will get a lot of hits, plain and simple. It doesn’t tell you anything about his hitting. It seems like you need to quite ignoring the overwhelming negative in his offense. He deserves to be in the Hall, but being the best at defense does not make him an all-time great. He’s closer to the bottom than he is to the top among hall of famers. 

8/25/2019 8:39PM PDT
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I saw the lack of range sorry I am use my eyeballs over sabermeteics.

Being that you dont care what I think. I will return that to you about Ozzie. I don’t know a soul who thought Ozzie wasn’t a HOF while he was playing or anyone who blinked twice when he got in. If he didn’t get in people would have lost their minds. If you need stats to figure out that ozzie is a legit no brained HOF I just laugh and question your judgement. Did you see edgarvir Ozzie ever play?

ozzie is NOT in for his offense, just like Edgar isn’t in for his defense. Just as a reminder Ozzie has the all time leader in dWAR. If dude robs a base hit that would have scored the winning run that is just as good as hitting that winning rbi.

Comment by Maverick31762
8/25/2019 4:53PM PDT

Again, you only using the “eye test” means you don’t have an argument. I never said Ozzie shouldn’t be in the Hall, just that he’s much closer to the bottom among hall of famers than he is to the top. No, I didn’t see either one of them play because I’m not a boomer like you. It’s a good thing metrics are not opinion based and aren’t wrong. Defense is not as valuable as offense, plain and simple. You can save all the runs you want, but if you can’t hit you can’t win. 

Saying saving a run is just as good as getting a run is just dumb and entirely situational. Maybe he wouldn’t have had to make that play if he would’ve been a better hitter? It’s a non argument.

8/25/2019 8:46PM PDT
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Just gonna use average huh? 

Jeter had an .838 OPS and 121 wRC+ in the postseason.

Bonds had .936 OPS and 141 wRC+

Arod had .832 OPS and 116 wRC+

Boggs had .720 OPS and 93 wRC+

Mantle had .908 OPS and 147 wRC+

Cobb had .668 OPS and 109 wRC+

Williams had .533 OPS and 48 wRC+ 

Mays had .660 OPS and 85 wRC+

Ramirez had .937 OPS and 140 wRC+

Morgan had .671 OPS and 92 wRC+

Sosa had .818 OPS and 110 wRC+

McGwire had .669 OPS and 87 wRC+

Lofton had .667 OPS and 75 wRC+

A lot of those guys were better than jeter in the postseason, and a lot weren’t. Jeter’s post season stats were really not that special at all.

Comment by DriveByTrucker17
8/25/2019 7:59PM PDT

Ok...MR. NOVEMBER was not special in the postseason. My lying eyes I guess. Jeters career OPS is .817 so he got even better in the postseason. It’s funny watching Jeter haters bend themselves I to pretzels trying to convince themselves he wasn’t special

I used average just to give you a taste of how “great” players didn’t play great in the postseason all the time. And yes those OPS are lower than there career OPS. I am sure all those guys had OPS over or close to 1000 for their career. Btw some of the OPs you have are higher than they really are. Point is most of these great players dipped in the postseason. Jeter stayed the same

8/26/2019 3:02AM PDT
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Again, you only using the “eye test” means you don’t have an argument. I never said Ozzie shouldn’t be in the Hall, just that he’s much closer to the bottom among hall of famers than he is to the top. No, I didn’t see either one of them play because I’m not a boomer like you. It’s a good thing metrics are not opinion based and aren’t wrong. Defense is not as valuable as offense, plain and simple. You can save all the runs you want, but if you can’t hit you can’t win. 

Saying saving a run is just as good as getting a run is just dumb and entirely situational. Maybe he wouldn’t have had to make that play if he would’ve been a better hitter? It’s a non argument.

Comment by DriveByTrucker17
8/25/2019 8:46PM PDT

Metrics are not infallible. You said yourself that pitching metrics make no sense. Defensive metrics need a ton of work put into them still, and offensive metrics entirely disregard situational baseball. You ever take a second to realize all of the pure 100% analytic teams either miss the playoffs or cant win when they get their? Oakland, Tampa, LA, the yankees up until this season. Extrapolated over a 162 game sample size analytics make sense, analytics work. Usually. In october, when you have 1, 5, and 7 game sample sizes analytics go out the window, they dont work. they dont work, their has never been a dedicated super analytics heavy team that win the WS. The astros were stupidly loaded with all star talent, red sox best BA and best team in baseball with RISP, Royals and Giants both old school styled teams. Also FYI pal: analytics are simply another way of evaluating players. I trust a good scouts eye more than any analytics that will ever be made 

8/26/2019 3:40AM PDT
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Yes, his overall WAR is literally all defense and nothing else. A guy being on the field long enough to get 2400 hits doesn’t impress me at all. Play a long time and you will get a lot of hits, plain and simple. It doesn’t tell you anything about his hitting. It seems like you need to quite ignoring the overwhelming negative in his offense. He deserves to be in the Hall, but being the best at defense does not make him an all-time great. He’s closer to the bottom than he is to the top among hall of famers. 

Comment by DriveByTrucker17
8/25/2019 8:39PM PDT

And if someone staying healthy enough and consistent enough to get 2,400 hits doesnt impress you than just stop talking baseball. You have already thoroughly embarrassed yourself just from that statement alone

8/26/2019 3:43AM PDT
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Great players are not great in the post season.

Post season numbers

Derek Jeter .308 yes there is such a thing as clutch

Bonds .245

Arod .259

wade Boggs .273

Mantle .257

Ty Cobb .262

Ted Williams .200

Willie Mays .247

manny Ramirez .285

joe Morgan .182

Sosa .245

mcGwire 217

Kenny Lofton 247

 

 

 

 

 

 

Comment by Maverick31762
8/25/2019 5:08PM PDT

Colby Rasmus  .423
Cargo   .412
Jose Offerman .400
 

Playoff Batting Average is the literal definition of small sample size.  Trying to use it to justify Hall credentials is almost the definition of madness.  Jeter has the appearance of "clutch" because he's far and away the leader in playoff career ABs.  In fact, he has more Playoff ABs than Bonds, Boggs, Cobb, Williams and Mays.  COMBINED!

8/26/2019 5:57AM PDT

Seriously, I'm not even sure what you guys are arguing...

Okay here:

1) Jeter is a HoFer. 

2) Jeter was still probably only the 3rd best SS of his ERA behind Tulo and A-Rod

3) He was a very good hitter and an incredibly tough out

4) Had an incredibly flashy jump throw from the hole

5) Which tended to mask rather pedestrian defense otherwise

6) A lot of the Legend of Jeter is tied to being a "good guy", a pretty face, media darling, playing on for cornerstone franchise in a dynasty era

In summation: Jeter was good. He's a HoF. But he's not even the greatest SS or his era. Yankees fans portray him as Jesus incarnate come to play ball, and non-yankees fans hate listening to the incessant circle jerk.

8/26/2019 8:52AM PDT

Glad to see this thread has really broken new ground on the whole "how good is Jeter debate". 

Except that guy that said Troy Tulowitzki was a better SS. Never heard that one before. Definitely got a chuckle and I'm not in the "JETER IS THE GOAT" camp.

8/26/2019 8:56AM PDT

Glad to see this thread has really broken new ground on the whole "how good is Jeter debate". 

Except that guy that said Troy Tulowitzki was a better SS. Never heard that one before. Definitely got a chuckle and I'm not in the "JETER IS THE GOAT" camp.

Comment by Brocktarrr
8/26/2019 8:56AM PDT

In the decade while Tulo was still able bodied his WAR surpassed Jeter just about every year.

8/26/2019 9:18AM PDT

This discussion will be so tiresome during the weeks approaching next year’s hall of fame election. It’s already tiresome now. First ballot easily based on pure statistical measures. Not the greatest of all time, but quite obviously among the greatest in franchise and league history. 

8/26/2019 9:24AM PDT

They don't seem to be doing cards for a lot of the steroids guys.

8/26/2019 9:27AM PDT
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In the decade while Tulo was still able bodied his WAR surpassed Jeter just about every year.

Comment by DUIaintEZ
8/26/2019 9:18AM PDT

You do realize that Tulowitski's first full season (2007) that Jeter was already entering the twilight of his career, right? Jeter was 33 years old and in his 12th season. Your argument is laughable even at its premise of even claiming they are in the same generation. But you really threw the cherry on top by saying Tulo is the better shortstop. 

Oh, and Jeter posted a higher WAR (6.6) in 2009 than Tulo (6.5). While you might say "It's pretty much the same!" Keep in mind that Jeter was 35 and Tulo was 24. 

If you want to compare shortstops from Jeter's actual generation then you're looking at A-Rod, Nomar, Miguel Tejada (slight stretch but a helluva lot closer than Tulo), Rafael Furcal, and Jimmy Rollins (another stretch).

Jesus I can't believe someone said something that made me *shudders* defend Derek Jeter. I need to go take a 2 hour shower now.

 

8/26/2019 9:33AM PDT
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You do realize that Tulowitski's first full season (2007) that Jeter was already entering the twilight of his career, right? Jeter was 33 years old and in his 12th season. Your argument is laughable even at its premise of even claiming they are in the same generation. But you really threw the cherry on top by saying Tulo is the better shortstop. 

Oh, and Jeter posted a higher WAR (6.6) in 2009 than Tulo (6.5). While you might say "It's pretty much the same!" Keep in mind that Jeter was 35 and Tulo was 24. 

If you want to compare shortstops from Jeter's actual generation then you're looking at A-Rod, Nomar, Miguel Tejada (slight stretch but a helluva lot closer than Tulo), Rafael Furcal, and Jimmy Rollins (another stretch).

Jesus I can't believe someone said something that made me *shudders* defend Derek Jeter. I need to go take a 2 hour shower now.

 

Comment by Brocktarrr
8/26/2019 9:33AM PDT

Taking the bulk of Jeter's career and excluding the 1995. 1995 and post 2010 eliminatating fringe years with below average WAR, Jeter accumulated 63.7 WAR and played 1966 games over that period. This mean Jeter over this period produced fWAR at a rate of 5.25 WAR/162 GP. Tulo over a span between 2007-2017 (his Rox years, minus his 25 game call up sample in 2006) amassed 33.2 fWAR over 936 games at a rate of 5.75 fWAR/162 GP.

And before you accuse me of cheery picking the sample, this sample also included Tulo's 2008 where he produced 0.5 WAR in 101 games. Meaning, of Tulo's sample I included a sample representing close to 10% of the overall sample which was a clear statistical outlier. Without it, he produced 6.34 fWAR/162 GP over the 8 remaining seasons. For Jeter, I did not include a single season where his fWAR was below 3.4.

When he was on the field and still healthy, Tulo was the superior player. He had serious issues with durability where Jeter ended up being incredibly durable and showed longevity. While that is part of what makes a player a HoF versus a footnote in baseball history, the metrics would bear out while Tulo was in him prime, he was a better player.

8/26/2019 10:09AM PDT
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Colby Rasmus  .423
Cargo   .412
Jose Offerman .400
 

Playoff Batting Average is the literal definition of small sample size.  Trying to use it to justify Hall credentials is almost the definition of madness.  Jeter has the appearance of "clutch" because he's far and away the leader in playoff career ABs.  In fact, he has more Playoff ABs than Bonds, Boggs, Cobb, Williams and Mays.  COMBINED!

Comment by SaveFarris
8/26/2019 5:57AM PDT

You are such a Jeter hater it’s sad. It’s not one thing. It’s all the things combined. Great hitter, good speed, smart player, performed in the playoffs. You try to deny each part of his game and then when proven how wrong you are you say “that’s not the only thing”. Jeter is a great player and a legend. 

8/26/2019 10:25AM PDT
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Taking the bulk of Jeter's career and excluding the 1995. 1995 and post 2010 eliminatating fringe years with below average WAR, Jeter accumulated 63.7 WAR and played 1966 games over that period. This mean Jeter over this period produced fWAR at a rate of 5.25 WAR/162 GP. Tulo over a span between 2007-2017 (his Rox years, minus his 25 game call up sample in 2006) amassed 33.2 fWAR over 936 games at a rate of 5.75 fWAR/162 GP.

And before you accuse me of cheery picking the sample, this sample also included Tulo's 2008 where he produced 0.5 WAR in 101 games. Meaning, of Tulo's sample I included a sample representing close to 10% of the overall sample which was a clear statistical outlier. Without it, he produced 6.34 fWAR/162 GP over the 8 remaining seasons. For Jeter, I did not include a single season where his fWAR was below 3.4.

When he was on the field and still healthy, Tulo was the superior player. He had serious issues with durability where Jeter ended up being incredibly durable and showed longevity. While that is part of what makes a player a HoF versus a footnote in baseball history, the metrics would bear out while Tulo was in him prime, he was a better player.

Comment by DUIaintEZ
8/26/2019 10:09AM PDT

Tulo player in coors. Tulo leaves coors and he immediately becomes an average to below average offensive player. Please use your brain 

8/26/2019 10:26AM PDT

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